Make the TIE Advanced an enticing Imperial ship

[Harbinger1975]

Anyone who has seen the TIE Advanced knows the famous character this ship is tied (no pun intended) to. The great Darth Vader in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, the Death Star trench scene. The lore behind this ship is that it was not a common ship, only used as an elite fighter among the best TIE Pilots. But, as we look at the TIE Advanced today, the ship is the LEAST desirable ship because it has such low mass at 66K. Which is only SLIGHTLY better than a TIE Interceptor. But not by much. I would like to suggest that we raise the mass of the TIE Advanced to the same level of the TIE Fighter (Heavy Variant) - ~98k to 100K mass, or slightly above that to around 110K to 120K mass to make it a more desirable ship. It shouldn't make it over powered and should allow the use of RE'd parts in the Cert level 7 range and give everyone just one more cool ship to use and maybe put it close to on par with the TIE Aggressor.

Kalsa Selbin/Ki'adra (Harbinger1975 in Discord)

 

[Vikingmando]

The TA is the A-Wing mirror except it has 2 gun slots instead of 1. I dont see a point in this unless we're changing and increasing mass on every other ship by comparison.

 

[NORD]

The TA is the A-Wing mirror except it has 2 gun slots instead of 1. I dont see a point in this unless we're changing and increasing mass on every other ship by comparison.

Agreed.

 

[Draskon]

If anything, the TIE Advanced is actually slightly better in every stat compared to the A-Wing, including its second gun slot. A better comparison is that the Advanced and TIE Interceptor are almost identical ships stat-wise minus the weapon slot and mass difference.

If anything, the A-Wing should receive some kind of a buff or adjustment to put it on more of a level playing field, and some tweaking could be done to more differentiate the Advanced and the Interceptor in terms of performance.

 

[windshadow0177]

There's many different ways to look at where the different ships are - canon, balance, and lore have their own takes on them.

For example - what is an X-wing doing with a third gun slot? And I say that as a Rebel-leaning pilot. If it were up to me, to use that third gun, you'd have to give up the torp slot. Not that that's really balance-penalty enough.

A TIE Defender, stat for stat, should eat a single X-wing alive due to its speed and maneuverability advantages, if you want to look at it from a lore perspective.

Balance-wise, the Imperials have been on the receiving end, dry, from the very start. Their pilot trees contain two of the most difficult, and they're stuck with single-gun ships until Tier 3, only to get a bottle-rocket-driven potato to have a second gun. The only viable two-gun option for Imps enters at Tier 4, and the Eta-2 is a bastardized version of itself that shouldn't exist. I say this also as a regular pilot of it.

I'm of the opinion that SOE opened the system far too wide - so many chassis are obsolete, unnecessary, and superfluous. Why would you fly anything other than an Eta-2 when all the other options are so inferior? So many specialist ships are left by the wayside because their specializations are covered by the scope of modifications that the system allows. The list of canon/lore deviations are numerous, and in some cases, egregious. Most of these ships "identities" have been erased/sublimated, which has allowed the meta we have to emerge.

The underlying questions, as I see them, are these:

1.> How do you rebalance the system as it is without further disrupting the system?

I agree that the TIE Advanced does get the short end of the stick here. It's relative size, compared to the A-wing, is more than large enough to justify the higher mass. I would be 100% on board with giving it the same mass as the CG Interceptor. Perhaps a little less.

But... The same argument can be made about the standard Interceptor itself. When you start making changes, how do you know when to stop? Once the first domino falls, all the others are under threat.

Specifically in this instance, however, since the TIE Advanced has been compared apples-to-apples to the A-Wing, what happens when you apply that same standard to the prior three Tiers?

2.> What are the limits of the coding resources, willingness to address this overall, and limits within the code itself?

I'll be the first to admit, I have no idea of the answer to all three parts of this question. Personally? I'd love to see a hard-mass and hard-performance limit on each ship, with actual performance calculated based on actual mass modified directly by part-stats. This would, I think, give each ship its own personality back. The problem is that I have no idea what kind of nightmare that would be to code, if the devs have any interest in even thinking about looking into making any kind of changes, nor if the JTL-code would allow anything of the sort.

As I see it, there's a shorter way to a balance solution here that would be much easier to handle from the code-basis, balance the Imperial equipment options beautifully - bringing them almost, if not perfectly, in line with the Rebel counterparts - and renders the questions regarding the TIE Advanced moot.

1.> Move the TIE Bomber to Tier 2 from Tier 3 - in line with the Rebel Y-wing Longprobe.
2.> Make a Prototype version of the TIE Defender, roughly on par with the Tier 3 X-wing in mass. This should be the most intensive part of my proposal from a code/adjustment perspective, based on my understanding.
3.> Move the high-mass version of the TIE Defender to Tier 4 from Master Pilot.

I think this solution addresses many issues, while not without effort and resources, yes, but also balances an area in which Imperial pilots are greatly handicapped compared to their Rebel and Neutral counterparts.

Thoughts?

Edit: spelling and punctuation

 

[Danno]

"For example - what is an X-wing doing with a third gun slot? And I say that as a Rebel-leaning pilot. If it were up to me, to use that third gun, you'd have to give up the torp slot. Not that that's really balance-penalty enough."

I agree 100% the x-wing should have 4 guns no 3 in pairs.

 

[windshadow0177]

"For example - what is an X-wing doing with a third gun slot? And I say that as a Rebel-leaning pilot. If it were up to me, to use that third gun, you'd have to give up the torp slot. Not that that's really balance-penalty enough."

I agree 100% the x-wing should have 4 guns no 3 in pairs.

I agree with you, emphatically. And if it were to load a third gun ( or fifth and sixth, since the system registers each pair as a single gun,) it should come at a cost.

But changes have to be made carefully to keep from creating a coding headache for the Devs and keep from upsetting balance too badly. Changes made can have unforeseen consequences that break things further down the line. For example, what if by taking away that third gun, it creates a mission problem in some or all of the Rebel Pilot Trees? From there, your choices are revert or start modifying missions, putting a greater workload on the server's development resources. Personally, I don't think this would happen, but what I think isn't the axle that this server spins on.

That's why my ultimate suggestion is to balance the Imperials upward, bringing them on par with the Rebels in terms of available equipment and when that equipment comes available. I think it's objectively obvious that the Imps have gotten the short end of the stick in equipment and relative pilot-path difficulty. My suggestion doesn't completely resolve that, but it does greatly ameliorate it.

At the end of the day, however, all of it is moot if the devs aren't feeling it. This is a passion project, and no one who invests their time and effort into it is getting paid. Our personal muses only work when they want to in these circumstances, I.E., when our heart is in it. The love/fart axiom applies here.

Edit: Punctuation and Spelling

 

[Carista]

That's why my ultimate suggestion is to balance the Imperials upward, bringing them on par with the Rebels in terms of available equipment and when that equipment comes available. I think it's objectively obvious that the Imps have gotten the short end of the stick in equipment and relative pilot-path difficulty. My suggestion doesn't completely resolve that, but it does greatly ameliorate it.

There is a trade-off in space combat with regards to ship types, sizes and equipment. Imperial ships are mostly interceptor type ships. The only acception being the TIE bomber. Even the TIE oppressor and TIE aggressor are, although classified as bombers, more interceptor then not. With it, the hitsphere of most, if not every TIE, is way smaller then that of most rebel ships (the A-wing is the exception). So there is a balance already in place.

In terms of components not making much sense; I draw your attention to the TIE interceptor. You put in one gun and it presents itself as four. Now this to me also strikes as weird, but that's the way it is. If you want to put in an extra gun, or even three, are you then also willing to, in example, enlarge the hitspheres of the imperial ships?

I would be happy to do away with the third gun slot on the X-Wing, but I would very much like to have the second ordnance bay in return. Bring it in line with the lore (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-65B_X-wing_starfighter).

 

[windshadow0177]

There is a trade-off in space combat with regards to ship types, sizes and equipment. Imperial ships are mostly interceptor type ships. The only acception being the TIE bomber. Even the TIE oppressor and TIE aggressor are, although classified as bombers, more interceptor then not. With it, the hitsphere of most, if not every TIE, is way smaller then that of most rebel ships (the A-wing is the exception). So there is a balance already in place.

In terms of components not making much sense; I draw your attention to the TIE interceptor. You put in one gun and it presents itself as four. Now this to me also strikes as weird, but that's the way it is. If you want to put in an extra gun, or even three, are you then also willing to, in example, enlarge the hitspheres of the imperial ships?

I would be happy to do away with the third gun slot on the X-Wing, but I would very much like to have the second ordnance bay in return. Bring it in line with the lore (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-65B_X-wing_starfighter).

Thanks for joining in

No, agreed to most of your points... The TIE Interceptor is one of the most egregious victims of the house that SOE built here. My personal feeling on the matter is that SOE developed the Imperial third of JTL last and bull-rushed through it half-assed.

But we have to be very careful about using lore as the guiding star. By that logic, most of the Imperial ships should not have shields. I'm pretty sure even the TIE Advanced MkI doesn't (edit: I stand corrected - https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/TIE_Advanced_x1 ). I know the Eta-2 shouldn't, which is -with it's utterly ridiculous maximum mass- what makes it such a travesty. The A-wing? The B-wing (not that it's worth much to us)? Bye-bye. TIE Defender? Nope. They're all still in development in this area of the timeline - prototypes at max. IIRC, the B-wings seen in RotJ were very late additions to that strike force. A-wings were being produced individually in private shops at that point - the one that Tycho Celchu flew in RotJ had custom Fijitsi(SP?)-wood pannels because they didn't have fabricated metal ones to install. Lore/Canon-wise, Imperial strength is in numbers and pilots are disposable.
This is a rabbit hole of ouch for everyone, except the Neutral Triangle.

And, since you brought it up, let's visit the joke that ordinance is... These weapons are supposed to hit much harder and at far greater ranges. They're slingshots, where they should be 9mm - at minimum. Concussion missiles range maxes out at 2km for guided launch - as a side note, guns, lore-speaking, should be hitting out to about 1-1.2km. They're chained to the same range as the guns in JTL -which are also handicapped by about half. A single concussion missile should strip the shields off of whichever side of a snubfighter they hit in normal circumstances. A proton torpedo should do the same, and get some damage through to the ship most of the time. The difference between the two is a concussion missile is an anti-starfighter weapon, where the proton torpedo is more multi-purpose between that and anti-capital ship/bombardment usage. Adding a ordinance slot to any ship with what JTL is vs. what it should be is a waste of time. I can't think of the last time I bothered to carry any ordinance.

There's tons that can be done with the entirety of JTL. I have several dream-scenarios that I'd love to see come to fruition. The reality is that this has to be balanced against the cost - and by that, I mean Dev-time and Dev-mental-well-being. That's why I offered my suggestion of balancing the Imperials up -by moving the TIE Bomber, TIE Defender, and creating a lower-mass TIE Defender- to match the Rebels.

Edit: Added more explanation to ordinance comments

 

[windshadow0177]

Now this to me also strikes as weird, but that's the way it is. If you want to put in an extra gun, or even three, are you then also willing to, in example, enlarge the hitspheres of the imperial ships?

I'm sorry, I forgot to address this part of your comments.

Personally, I don't find anything wrong with any of the hit-boxes. Yes, that includes the JSF/Eta-2 (more on this in a moment). I am interested in other's opinions here, but I don't have any trouble with this, really. Some are a little off-center -the Ixy, for example. It's hitbox, by my eye, is centered a little low, but otherwise not disproportional.

The Eta-2's problem isn't in it's hitbox - which is appropriate for its size- so much as it is in its stats. Most, if not all, of the Jedi-used starfighters were not supposed to use shields because they depended on their danger-sense to allow them to avoid damage. SOE, in it's ridiculously poor marketing decision, allowed this ship to enter the game where it should not have as it stands.
This line of thought is where I scratch my head at a ton of their design choices... I can't see Lucas Arts denying them the IP/rights to port over sooooo many ships that were already established in lore/canon with stats already modeled from X-wing/TIE Fighter/X-wing Vs. TIE/X-wing: Alliance... Why didn't they bring something else in? And this goes just as well for the entire Neutral line-up... Cloak-shape, Preybirds, and shouldn't the Z-95 also have found a place there for the Neuts? It's one of the most prolific non-front-line fighters in lore... Why didn't they leave well enough alone with the Belbulab-22? We know the answer on the later, but everything else they passed up? Come on guys...

Edit: Spelling

 

[Draskon]

This discussion is absolutely fantastic, and it brings up a lot of "issues" I personally had/have with JTL given growing up with the X-Wing Vs. TIE Fighter series, and especially X-Wing Alliance, along with all of the Rogue Squadron games.

I was a kid when I played this back on live, so I hadn't the slightest clue about what worked and what didn't, I was just completely and totally enamored by the customization that JTL allowed for. Being able to have different engines and weapons along with paints and textures on my ships was *mindblowing* to me at the time, and it still is. Moreso now that nothing even remotely attempted something similar to those games since. (I don't really count Star Wars Squadrons, as it was effectively a gutted X-Wing Alliance with an absurd focus on PvP that just looked like a half-baked 4KHD Unreal Engine 5 demo parody you'd see on YouTube.)

Speaking of, the XWA Upgrade Mod is PHENOMENAL if you ever get a chance to try it out. I wish we could spruce up the space game here with some of their tweaks, models, and knowhow, because having their work in a game like this that is so open to player freedom would take it to an entirely different level. Though, I digress.

Getting to the main points about balance, I have to largely agree on a lot of the ships mentioned. There is quite literally no statistical difference between the TIE Interceptor and the TIE Advanced outside of its mass, weapon slot count, and hitbox. The A-Wing, despite supposedly being the TIE/A's mirror is objectively worse in every single stat; the only equal stat is its mass cap. The TIE Interceptor is also a Tier 3 ship, making it completely redundant vs. the Advanced.

You are correct on that some Imperial ships were not installed with shields, however that was only a major issue for TIE/f series craft, and was an optional upgrade on Interceptors and others. Largely due to the immense expectations the Empire had on its pilots.

The TIE/In(terceptor) has 4 hardpoints, yet 1 weapon slot. The X-Wing has 4 (6 for Advanced if we really want to let it be special, haha) hardpoints, and 2 (3) weapon slots, and the B-Wing is the only one with 4 hardpoints and 4 weapon slots. The strangest thing is that you can't change the linking of these cannons in any real way outside of the weapon slots, so the only workaround would be to make a weapon slot for every hardpoint, which could lead to some mass issues very fast if they aren't adjusted appropriately. However, that would likely mean a *lot* of re-crafting of chassis which may or may not upset shipwrights.

There would definitely need to be a lot of rethinking of how you would appropriately progress these in the piloting trees as well too, because according to the lore, the A-Wing was one of the hardest ships to use, yet it's granted certification very early on. There are some redundancies that need to be addressed too, as I'll mention below.

There also a number of issues plaguing the piloting skills that need to be looked at again to make... practically all of them not only more desireable to use, but also more evenly balanced across the piloting profession, although I'm still drafting up a solution to that problem among other things. I am in agreement that JTL could use a little more "X-Wing Alliance" in its mix to really make space far more fun and engaging, because outside of a couple of things once you've finished your Ace(s) there's not really much else to do outside of Destroy duties, Space GCW Battles, or Piracy Convoys.

If anything, I was thinking about a lot of what has been discussed here already, and it's nice to see out in the open that I'm not the only one that feels this way. I don't believe player ships should be so held down by lore that they're stripped of shielding or even super overpowered that nothing can stand a chance (looking at the TIE/D). One possibility if we did go that way would be to increase chassis armour and HP of Imperial craft to compensate for lack of shielding, but you cannot shunt, reinforce, recharge, or repair armour/hull mid-flight. Stopping at a station to repair every so often isn't the most practical ask either. Nor would it be respectful to all the currently crafted chassis out there if it wasn't made into a retroactive change, which I don't think can be done with crafted chassis. Don't quote me on that, though.

The TIE Bomber should not be that late into the Imperial career either, I agree. I also believe the Y-Wings need to be entirely revisited. Lore-wise they're different models (The turreted version is the BTL-S3, the Longprobe is the BTL-A4), but the only major differences in-game are mass and... the fact that the Tier 3 Longprobe ship doesn't need a gunner to use the 2nd weapon. I would've expected them to be granted the other way around, given the fact that the TIE Aggressor is granted so late, and the Dunelizard is effectively the Neutral's Y-Wing as their 2nd ship.

I also agree that more of the iconic ships we know from X-Wing Alliance and games of old should be represented in JTL in some format. There's a lot that needs to be adjusted and reworked, but I think it's doable even if it may take a bit of time. Those games were my childhood, and after experiencing some frantic space battles even within JTL with some group quests, I can safely say that this game needs more of *that*. I think the game in its current state plays space a bit too safely, if you understand what I mean.

Though for the record, I am not on board with the idea of simply making higher difficulty enemies have more HP/Armour and hit harder. I feel that that kind of method of adding difficulty is a very lazy and uninteresting way of approaching it, and doesn't really test player skill or push for improvement in any meaningful way than just "lol just don't get hit as much." When you consider the NPCs success rate in hitting you is a blend of chance and physics rather than actually... y'know, physics entirely. At least that's the way I understand it.

In any case, glad to see this.

 

[windshadow0177]

This discussion is absolutely fantastic, and it brings up a lot of "issues" I personally had/have with JTL given growing up with the X-Wing Vs. TIE Fighter series, and especially X-Wing Alliance, along with all of the Rogue Squadron games.

I was a kid when I played this back on live, so I hadn't the slightest clue about what worked and what didn't, I was just completely and totally enamored by the customization that JTL allowed for. Being able to have different engines and weapons along with paints and textures on my ships was *mindblowing* to me at the time, and it still is. Moreso now that nothing even remotely attempted something similar to those games since. (I don't really count Star Wars Squadrons, as it was effectively a gutted X-Wing Alliance with an absurd focus on PvP that just looked like a half-baked 4KHD Unreal Engine 5 demo parody you'd see on YouTube.)

Speaking of, the XWA Upgrade Mod is PHENOMENAL if you ever get a chance to try it out. I wish we could spruce up the space game here with some of their tweaks, models, and knowhow, because having their work in a game like this that is so open to player freedom would take it to an entirely different level. Though, I digress.

Getting to the main points about balance, I have to largely agree on a lot of the ships mentioned. There is quite literally no statistical difference between the TIE Interceptor and the TIE Advanced outside of its mass, weapon slot count, and hitbox. The A-Wing, despite supposedly being the TIE/A's mirror is objectively worse in every single stat; the only equal stat is its mass cap. The TIE Interceptor is also a Tier 3 ship, making it completely redundant vs. the Advanced.

You are correct on that some Imperial ships were not installed with shields, however that was only a major issue for TIE/f series craft, and was an optional upgrade on Interceptors and others. Largely due to the immense expectations the Empire had on its pilots.

The TIE/In(terceptor) has 4 hardpoints, yet 1 weapon slot. The X-Wing has 4 (6 for Advanced if we really want to let it be special, haha) hardpoints, and 2 (3) weapon slots, and the B-Wing is the only one with 4 hardpoints and 4 weapon slots. The strangest thing is that you can't change the linking of these cannons in any real way outside of the weapon slots, so the only workaround would be to make a weapon slot for every hardpoint, which could lead to some mass issues very fast if they aren't adjusted appropriately. However, that would likely mean a *lot* of re-crafting of chassis which may or may not upset shipwrights.

There would definitely need to be a lot of rethinking of how you would appropriately progress these in the piloting trees as well too, because according to the lore, the A-Wing was one of the hardest ships to use, yet it's granted certification very early on. There are some redundancies that need to be addressed too, as I'll mention below.

There also a number of issues plaguing the piloting skills that need to be looked at again to make... practically all of them not only more desireable to use, but also more evenly balanced across the piloting profession, although I'm still drafting up a solution to that problem among other things. I am in agreement that JTL could use a little more "X-Wing Alliance" in its mix to really make space far more fun and engaging, because outside of a couple of things once you've finished your Ace(s) there's not really much else to do outside of Destroy duties, Space GCW Battles, or Piracy Convoys.

If anything, I was thinking about a lot of what has been discussed here already, and it's nice to see out in the open that I'm not the only one that feels this way. I don't believe player ships should be so held down by lore that they're stripped of shielding or even super overpowered that nothing can stand a chance (looking at the TIE/D). One possibility if we did go that way would be to increase chassis armour and HP of Imperial craft to compensate for lack of shielding, but you cannot shunt, reinforce, recharge, or repair armour/hull mid-flight. Stopping at a station to repair every so often isn't the most practical ask either. Nor would it be respectful to all the currently crafted chassis out there if it wasn't made into a retroactive change, which I don't think can be done with crafted chassis. Don't quote me on that, though.

The TIE Bomber should not be that late into the Imperial career either, I agree. I also believe the Y-Wings need to be entirely revisited. Lore-wise they're different models (The turreted version is the BTL-S3, the Longprobe is the BTL-A4), but the only major differences in-game are mass and... the fact that the Tier 3 Longprobe ship doesn't need a gunner to use the 2nd weapon. I would've expected them to be granted the other way around, given the fact that the TIE Aggressor is granted so late, and the Dunelizard is effectively the Neutral's Y-Wing as their 2nd ship.

I also agree that more of the iconic ships we know from X-Wing Alliance and games of old should be represented in JTL in some format. There's a lot that needs to be adjusted and reworked, but I think it's doable even if it may take a bit of time. Those games were my childhood, and after experiencing some frantic space battles even within JTL with some group quests, I can safely say that this game needs more of *that*. I think the game in its current state plays space a bit too safely, if you understand what I mean.

Though for the record, I am not on board with the idea of simply making higher difficulty enemies have more HP/Armour and hit harder. I feel that that kind of method of adding difficulty is a very lazy and uninteresting way of approaching it, and doesn't really test player skill or push for improvement in any meaningful way than just "lol just don't get hit as much." When you consider the NPCs success rate in hitting you is a blend of chance and physics rather than actually... y'know, physics entirely. At least that's the way I understand it.

In any case, glad to see this.

Welcome Back Pull up a chair...

RE - XWA & Squadrons:

I was disgusted with Squadrons and it surprised me how quickly I grew bored with and abandoned it. I was not impressed with the campaign(s), and it appears that EA tried to use them as a tease to turn the game into Battlefield: X-wing. IMO, that failed miserably.

I have looked at the XWA rework and would love to play with it, but for the time... XWA holds a special place for me, in that my friends and I used to have LAN parties where we would all build our own engagement scenarios and then play them... As adults As a kid, I was playing X-wing, and in my high school years, TIE Fighter. I miss those days in a big way.

RE - much of the bulk of your thoughts:
I think we definitely should get a different discussion thread going about the different viewpoints of what's in need of work and how to do it with JTL. There's so much of your message that I want to engage with, but would be a side-thread to the suggestion discussion here. While there are parts of your point of view that I disagree with, we are largely of the same mind. While I absolutely agree, SOE should have made JTL more "sim," I also understand why they went more "arcade" with it on the whole - to better engage with a larger part of the player-base. How to address and adjust that course that they set us on is a much larger, deeper, and broader discussion that I don't think belongs in the 4 walls of where this conversation started. And yes, that we're straining that border now is somewhat my fault.

For purposes of the suggestion-type-discussion, I think we need to keep our proposals as simple and minimally-invasive as we can, which is why I haven't expanded on my own ideas in this realm any further than I have. Thus my own -relatively- simple suggestion. I know it's a band-aid on top of several dozen other band-aids. It doesn't fit with lore or timeline. That said, it's the shortest path to what I think is a fair solution that the Imperials in particular are long overdue for - while being reasonably and fairly quickly within reach.

I'd love for the Devs to participate and "buy-in" to a larger rework of a far more expansive space experience, but that has to be their choice and they need to be inspired to do it -if it is possible within the framework of what we have.

Let's get that separate discussion going, starting with our own visions of what JTL could be, and see what we have from there

Edit: Clarification

 

[windshadow0177]

I also agree that more of the iconic ships we know from X-Wing Alliance and games of old should be represented in JTL in some format.

Also, for the record, the knowledge base I'm drawing on for my comments isn't limited to any of the XW/TF games. I'm also drawing on the novels, from the original trilogy all the way through the Yuzaan Vong-mess before Disney threw it all out, and the table-top RPG material.

I refuse to acknowledge any of the material after they canonized Pink 5 in one of the later-released books...

 

[Right]

Love how passionate you all are! My two cents from a primarily balance standpoint: Tie Adv is good in PvP, sucks in PvE. Same as most interceptors.
Suggestion: NPCs shouldn't be able to hit smaller ships as easily as they currently do. If that could be done without modifying the hitsphere, that might balance their PvE effectiveness without impacting PvP.